Do you agree?

(Reprint from 2009)
The dire need to stop global warming with an aggressive renewable energy plan for Ontario outstrips potential damage to sensitive environmental areas, says Marion Fraser, a founding member of the Green Energy Act Alliance.   The Sarnia Observer
Green Energy Act to be introduced next week
Posted 2 years ago
By CATHY DOBSON

The Observer

The dire need to stop global warming with an aggressive renewable energy plan for Ontario outstrips potential damage to sensitive environmental areas, says Marion Fraser, a founding member of the Green Energy Act Alliance.

She was in Sarnia Tuesday to get public input on new legislation expected to be introduced at Queen’s Park next week.

The Green Energy Act was drafted by the Liberal government at the urging of groups like Fraser’s in order to fight global warming and create as many as 50,000 jobs, she told a group of industry leaders, politicians and environmentalists at The Lambton Inn.

“I have faith in Premier (Dalton) McGuinty and Energy Minister (George) Smitherman because I think they recognize they’ve got to be bold or go home,” Fraser said.

The Green Energy Act is expected to spur the development of a green economy that protects the environment. The premier has already said the Act will prevent citizens from objecting to alternative energy projects unless environmental or safety standards are jeopardized.

That prompted several objections from the audience.

“I don’t have a good feeling about this,” said Malcolm Boyd on behalf of Lambton Wildlife.

If a developer proposes a solar panel farm that will wipe out a woodlot or a wind turbine farm in a flypath, the Act could take away the average citizen’s right to object, Boyd said.

Fraser assured him that the intent of the Green Energy Act is to protect vulnerable habitat and animal populations. But she said a balanced approach needs to be found.

“My concern is how many species of wildlife we are going to lose to global warming,” she said.

Later, Fraser conceded that it is ironic that environmental groups are concerned about an Act that is supposed to be good for the planet.

“We’ve talked about this issue,” she said. “We have to recognize that there are global changes taking place and they are driven significantly by our use of energy, and we have to find ways to reduce that impact.

“We have to look at it in balance. We have included recommendations in terms of protecting environment, things like avoiding wetlands and avoiding birdpaths.”

Numerous groups including the World Wildlife Foundation, the David Suzuki Foundation and the Ontario Sustainable Energy Association were consulted in the writing of the Green Energy Act.

They believe Ontario should become a leader in renewable energy in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, Fraser said.

Although it won’t be clear what the draft contains until next week, she said core components include a call for fair prices for renewable energy, based on the cost of production.

She said she hopes it will also mean a commitment from the government to finance programs for community-owned energy projects.

In the longrun, renewable energy saves money, Fraser said.

She said she believes there is widespread support for the Green Energy Act because it addresses both environmental as well as economic issues.

“We have to do it now because there are real benefits for both,” she said.

Although Smitherman has said he wants the legislation to be passed this spring, there will be time for the public to provide input.

Fraser suggested contacting the local MPP’s office to make comment and logging onto www.greenenergyact.ca for more details.

44 thoughts on “Do you agree?

  1. I cannot believe I am witnessing this in my lifetime…..This once progressive and civilized country has gone over the edge. I am very afraid.

  2. Are you crazy Ms. Fraser? Are you completely insane to say we have to destroy the environment in order to save it?

    This crap about Global Warming and how we can fix it with Wind Generation is the most naive and faulty directive I have ever studied in all my years on this planet.

    Of course you ARE part of the Green Energy Act Alliance and you people are the mouth pieces for the corrupt Wind Industry. What else would you say.

    Why don’t you put one of these monsters in your back yard Ms. Fraser and let us all know how you sleep at night in a couple of months. Shame on you! What you suggest is the whole is more important than the individual. Didn’t Adolph Hitler use that old line?.

  3. The glutinous waste of Urban practices and big business is killing our rural way of life and the environment as well. We will not benefit one iota from the Industrial Wind Turbines in close proximity to our homes, because we won’t even be drawing on the small amount of Electricity they will produce. We are the ones who will make the sacrifices that the wind proponents say will benefit the Province. This is a load of horse manure. We aren’t castoffs. We have rights too!!

  4. What else would you expect from this organization?
    They don’t give a damn about the environment.

  5. Marion Fraser must be getting crowded in that big bed with Despots Smitherman and McGuinty, CANWEA, and all the wind industry bedmates. The GEA does nothing but remove rights from decent citizens and give big business open season on our hard earned money and our covetted environment. Global warming is a scam brought about to keep big business making money by keeping the uninformed masses in a state of fear. Last time I checked we all lived on a hunk of rock that has been cooling since it was first formed and it will continue to cool, since it isn’t a sun/star after all.

  6. This lady and her “organization” are receiving money from the Trillium fund. This insanity is what McGuinty and Smitherman are basing their Green Energy Act on. It appears the environmental movement has been hijacked by hysteria and fascism. God save our natural wildlife areas from these idiots.

    I’m sure they believe potential damage to human beings is also worth it. Collateral damage is all we are to these people.

  7. Shockingly naive fools, or cunningly predatory liars?

    The vulture flies high, but its gaze is fixed upon carrion on the ground.

    They and their ilk have invented the lie of the human made (anthropogenic) climate change (anthropogenic global warming (AGW) and anthropogenic global cooling). It is the largest scam ever perpetrated upon all of humanity, and especially upon the Non-Kyoto-Exempt Western Nations. Easily worth many many many TRILLION$.

    They have been told that that CO2 is the life giving trace gas of plants, harmless, and trailing global warming by about 800 years, yet they dare to “sell us the goods” to profit from toxic “carbon offsets” forced out of our pockets.

    They have been told that 1934 was the warmest year lately, yet they are stll shilling the shrill hype of AGW.
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs /Fig.D.txt

    They have been told, that the sun is the driver of the global and planetary climates, yet would have us believe the night gets cold because humans create no CO2 at night.
    http://www.cort.ca/Two_emails_and_notes.html

    They have been told, that wind power has a Capacity Value of about zero. Worthless, and they know it!, yet are CURTAILING HUMAN RIGHTS by fascist edicts to continue their rampage.
    http://www.cort.ca/How_we_got_here.htm

    Now the lady is admitting that they want to destroy our sensitive environment by FORCING totally worthless turbine junk near human habitat so we can pay billions for our own destruction. The side effect is humans get sick, properties become worthless, humans are forced out from their homes, and an additional windfall profit of abandoned property is created for the “Green Energy Act Alliance”

    These people do not appear to be shockingly naive fools, yet also no saints.

  8. M. Fraser has absolutely no respect for the enviroment or the the families that are harmed by these wind turbines.

  9. This kind of statement rings along the same lines of Prince Phillip wishing to be reincarnated as a virus so that he can pop off our over populated earth. Wouldn’t it all be wonderful if there were no human beings to spoil things for good old mother earth. In this case lets do the damage so that we can in turn save her, yet a simple step to include all of the proper scrubbers on all of Ontario’s coal fired plants is not a solution. Go Figure!

  10. First of all, this statement was not mine, but an interpretation by the reporter who needed a “headline” for her article. There were no quotes around it so please change your blog to indicate this is not a quote.

    In my presentation I noted that health, safety and environmental concerns were of utmost importance. In fact I was contrasting the esthetic concerns of the people of Scarborough with the need to be concerned about global warming. And how we need balance.

    Here is the advice the Green Energy Act gave the government on this matter:

    The purpose of the Green Energy Act is to protect the environment by
    establishing a sustainable energy system for Ontario that improves air
    quality and reduces greenhouse gas emissions. The Green Energy Act must
    recognize that the principles of environmental protection apply to every
    energy project and should not compromise human health, community
    values or natural heritage systems.
    The Green Energy Act should amend the Environmental Assessment Act
    and Planning Act to:
    1. Implement a “one project, one process” approach, in order to dispense
    with the need for green energy proponents to apply for and obtain
    Planning Act approvals and appear before the OMB for new or
    existing projects which:
    a. Have already been approved (or exempted) under the
    Environmental Assessment Act (EA Act); or
    b. Are subject to the prescribed planning, documentary and
    consultation requirements under the EA Act (e.g. individual EA, Class
    EA, or ESP under O.Reg. 116/01); and,
    2. Amend the EA Act in order to impose enhanced public notice
    requirements for green energy projects to ensure that interested/
    affected municipalities, stakeholders, and First Nation/aboriginal
    communities receive timely and adequate notice of their opportunities
    to participate in the applicable environmental planning process (e.g.
    individual EA, Class EA, or ESP under O.Reg.116/01). In addition,
    the Lieutenant Governor in Council should be empowered to make
    regulations that:
    a. Contain clear, prescriptive provincial standards for the siting of
    green energy projects (e.g. “no go” areas, setback requirements,
    etc.) and that determine areas in need of protection. Restrictions
    should be technology specific and based on legitimate and peer reviewed
    scientific data
    b. Provide exceptions for First Nations and Métis projects to the
    greatest extent possible
    c. Streamline and coordinate environmental assessments and where
    possible use Class Environmental Assessments. The purpose of a Class
    EA is to specify a planning process through which environmental
    impacts and benefits are considered in proposed projects. A Class
    EA will provide effective and efficient project assessment and public
    engagement processes that are appropriate for projects within the
    class. It will ensure that proponents take into account the potential
    impacts and benefits of proposed projects as well as the interests of
    individuals, communities, agencies and organizations, as appropriate
    d. Streamline and coordinate planning and building permit processes
    With respect to streamlining approvals under the Class EA process,
    the Lieutenant Governor in Council should be empowered to make
    regulations:
    l Adjusting project categories or thresholds under approved Class EAs
    and the ESP so that a greater number of renewable energy projects
    are fully exempt under the EA Act (but they must still obtain other
    federal or provincial approvals where applicable)
    l Prescribing shorter timeframes e.g. six months, and clearer deadlines
    for the completion of the planning/review process under approved
    Class EAs and the ESP
    l Limiting grounds for bump-up/elevation requests to matters of
    provincial interest (as opposed to matters that are essentially local in
    nature)
    l Creating an independent, expedited process for determining bump up/
    elevation requests (e.g. written hearing by a member of the
    Environmental Review Tribunal, or re-establishment of an EAAC-like
    entity to advise the Minister on such matters)
    Depending on the technology and if it is a First Nations Community Energy
    Project, green energy projects should not be located in, nor cause adverse
    impacts upon:
    l Critical habitat of species listed as endangered and threatened under
    the Endangered Species Act, 2007
    l Provincially significant wetlands, valleys, woodlands or wildlife habitat
    l Provincially significant areas of natural, agricultural and scientific
    interest
    l Significant areas of cultural heritage or archaeological value, including
    First Nations’ or aboriginal communities’ sacred sites
    l Lands designated as Escarpment Natural Area or Escarpment
    Protection Area under the Niagara Escarpment Planning and
    Development Act
    l Lands designated as Natural Core Area or Natural Linkage Area under
    the Oak Ridges Moraine Conservation Act, 2001
    l Provincial parks and conservation reserves, except in accordance with
    section 19 of the Provincial Parks and Conservation Reserves Act, 2006

    And what financial gain do you think I am getting out of this?

    You may also be interested that I was the one with the ear of this government who turned the tide on the whole issue of stray voltage

  11. On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:06 PM, wrote to ML Anderson:
    I would love to have to opportunity to speak with you. I am willing to listen.

    Her response was not in the spirt of my offer.

    No, I don’t think you are ready to listen at all, Marion.

    Anyone who would take a stance like that will immediately dismiss any information or concerns that I might have. I’ve dealt with people of your mindset and it is futile to discuss anything with them once they take such an extreme, mindless stance such as yours.

    You are not an environmentalist at all. You have completely turned the rhetoric around 180 degrees to suit your own financial and career goals. Your perverted brand of “environmentalism” based on propoganda and financial gain is disgusting to me. What kind of mind thinks it is necessary to industrialize Algonquin Park?

    What do you have to say to Barbara Ashbee who is now being forced out of her home that her and her husband have put years of loving care into? You are seeing the effects through a green fog in an abstract haze. I am seeing them up close and personal.

    It is beyond frightening that people like yourselves have the ear of this government.

    Maureen Anderson
    Amherstburg, ON

  12. Marion wrote: You may also be interested that I was the one with the ear of this government who turned the tide on the whole issue of stray voltage

    Oh really? Tell that to the people in Ripley Ontario who are being ignored and dismissed. It would be a political no-no for the public to actually find out what is going on there. Exactly what have you done? Nothing has changed at all. Bruce Crozier, who I believe was Chair of that committee, refuses to even acknowledge the many, many emails sent to him. Ignore them and perhaps they will go away.

  13. Check the Ontario Energy Board process on stray voltage – The OEB is working on this and if you or others have any comments you should direct them to the OEB.

  14. Oh Gee [slaps forehead]…why didn’t we think of that??

    THEY HAVE, Ms. Fraser! And they are simply ignored. Wouldn’t want to sully the myth of wind power, now would we? Are you truly that naive as to what is really going on here politically?

  15. on Feb22 Marion Fraser says “In my presentation I
    noted that health,safety and environmental concerns
    were of utmost importance”. OH? when was that Ms
    Fraser? I do not recall the health,safety and environmental concerns of myself and many others
    getting any consideration from the Ont.Gov.

  16. We have a process in place now that won’t grant an environmental assessment on a wind farm despite repeated requests. The new act will only diminish this.

    Call the Green energy Act for what it is: an assault on democracy. Tell me Ms. Fraser do you understand the principle of Magna Carta: the government is not above the law?

    A little bit of opposition because of legitimate concerns and the government wants to stifle it.

    One aspect of our democracy that gets people involved is the local planning process. Now what? It will breed apathy and contempt for the government. One that thinks it won the election. An election where only 54% come out to vote.

    It wouldn’t be so bad if the government set some minimum windmill setback standards leaving any right to increase it to the municipal government.

    Tell your buddy McGuinty to take this act and the politics of confrontation and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine.

    Oh ya, why does the Ministry of Energy fund the Ontario Sustainable Energy Association that you are part of?

  17. This link will take you to a complete list of funding sources for the Ontario Sustainable Energy Association (OSEA), which is part of The Green Energy Act Alliance. It includes two Ontario government ministries and one agency.

    The government funded a group to lobby itself to bring in the green energy act. Isn’t that collusion?

    CanWEA is a voting member of OSEA. This is a quote from a January 2009 CanWEA file.

    “Acceptable separation distances for sound are generally 300 to 600 m; at these distances, sound from the wind turbines is similar to a whisper”

    What credible peer-reviewed study did they use to determine those setbacks that have proven totally inadequate?

    Where do you stand Ms. Fraser? If you care about our health, will you recommend much larger setbacks that provide adequate protection?

    http://www.torontohydroenergy.com/pdf/CanWEA – Addressing concerns with wind energy – January 2009 Final.pdf

    http://www.ontario-sea.org/Page.asp?PageID=122&ContentID=916&SiteNodeID=205&BL_ExpandID=50

  18. Let me get this straight. Government gives money to environmental lobby groups. Lobby groups make non-arms length recommendations to government on energy policy and government accepts and implements aforemention recommendations. Sorry Ms. Fraser, this little arrangement does not pass the smell test. Money seems to be the prime motivator here, not the environment.

  19. Marion Fraser’s comments on the Green Energy Act is nothing more than the “psycho babble” that the GEAA has used in all their “public consultations. These NGO’s assume they are talking to a bunch of uneducated “hayseeds” who wallow their days away in muck and pig pens scarping a subsistent living from the soil. She is part of a large group of uninformed, cloistered money seekers who don’t understand that the very land these wind turbines are destroying actually is the very land where their fresh “Ontariariario” foodstuffs come from!
    Just keep letting these destructive people talk their talk and try and make sense out of the anti democratic GEA and we will see them for they really are………. Profiteers!

  20. Marion Fraser’s comments defending the GEA, Solar and Wind power remind of Racehorse Haynes defending his clients…

    For instance, he’s represented three doz­en women in what he refers to as “Smith & Wesson divorces,” which are cases where the husband had been abusive, leading the wife to kill in self-defense.

    “I won all but two of those cases,” he says. “And I would have won them if my clients hadn’t kept reloading their gun and firing.”

    — or this —

    “Say you sue me because you say my dog bit you,” he told the audience. “Well, now this is my defense: My dog doesn’t bite. And second, in the alternative, my dog was tied up that night. And third, I don’t believe you really got bit.”

    His final defense, he said, would be: “I don’t have a dog.”

    http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/07/racehorse-haynes.html

    …and that’s the trouble. Marion keeps reloading and firing… I don’t think any defense could get her off the hook now… or maybe it’s that she claims that she never had a dog at all. so not guilty…

  21. “one project, one process”
    Only one decision made for Ontario, Industrial Wind Turbine development.

    “Depending on the technology and if it is a First Nations Community Energy
    Project, green energy projects should not be located in, nor cause adverse
    impacts upon:
    l Critical habitat of species listed as endangered and threatened under
    the Endangered Species Act, 2007
    l Provincially significant wetlands, valleys, woodlands or wildlife habitat
    l Provincially significant areas of natural, agricultural and scientific
    interest
    l Significant areas of cultural heritage or archaeological value, including
    First Nations’ or aboriginal communities’ sacred sites
    l Lands designated as Escarpment Natural Area or Escarpment
    Protection Area under the Niagara Escarpment Planning and
    Development Act
    l Lands designated as Natural Core Area or Natural Linkage Area under
    the Oak Ridges Moraine Conservation Act, 2001
    l Provincial parks and conservation reserves, except in accordance with
    section 19 of the Provincial Parks and Conservation Reserves Act, 2006”
    Endangered species have been threatened, First Nations communities left out of consultations, Oak Ridges Moraine in development for Industrial Wind Turbines, and Crown lands put forth as a free for all for Industrial Wind Turbine developers. Wasn’t worth writing out a Green Energy Act.

    “You may also be interested that I was the one with the ear of this government who turned the tide on the whole issue of stray voltage”
    So was Maria VanBommel who doesn’t give a rats *ss about her constituents concerns. In no way would I trust Marion to plan out a electrically engineered plan to produce hydro for Ontario citizens.

  22. Welll maybe she does have a dog in the Hunt…

    Our Team!
    http://www.strategicinsights.ca/our-team.php

    They are an ambitious group… To wit…

    What We Do

    We provide high quality, results-based consulting services. Strategic Insights Inc. is the only firm that combines CIA-based competitive intelligence training with business development support to accelerate success for our clients. We assist companies by:

    Targeted Strategies to Increase Business – Positioning clients to develop competitive advantages that are objective, measurable, quantifiable, credible and compelling.

    Knowledge of New Business Opportunities – Through our extensive connections in government and industry, as well as our CIA-based training in market and competitive analysis

    Access to Key Decision-Makers – Over 20 years collective experience working with Canada’s top energy and infrastructure companies, governments and institutions.

    Implementation Support – Driving strategies forward to accomplish desired goals

    Hey — looking for more database people and technical types? But I don’t come cheap!

    • There are a lot of things that bother me with PDF linked above — too numerous for a comprehensive response without writing a paper and responding almost point by point. One of the things that the “Greens” never seemed to understand was that for the Renewable Energy sector to become viable it would have to produce — in industrial sized quantities…

      Her paper states:
      Traditional sources of electricity are designed, operated and maintained by highly
      paid professionals. Resources like conservation and small-scale renewable
      energy are secondary job functions at best and often delivered by amateurs or
      volunteers.

      The idea of a “wind Mill Raising” by a community to power a community is both amusing an frightening — dues to the required size and the high technology. The other frightening portion is this one…

      Ontario Regulation 426/04 under the Electricity Act, which set up the Ontario Power
      Authority requires:
      1. that the procurement process and selection criteria are fairly stated and where
      possible are open to a broad range of bidders;
      2. the procurement process being a competitive one to the greatest extent possible;
      3. there being no conflicts of interest or no unfair advantage; and
      4. the procurement process not having an adverse impact on project development
      independent of the OPA
      The OPA’s Integrated Power System Plan identifies three types of procurement:
      Competitive, Standard Offer and Non Competitive with Competitive being the
      preferred option. The Ontario Power Authority has interpreted this regulation in such
      a way as to equate competition to RFPs. Surely competition can be achieved in
      ways other than an RFP. And the use of the seemingly pejorative term “Non
      Competitive” (like the term Non Utility Generators) might have been better
      characterized as “Strategic Competition.
      Although government direction has required the OPA to use the standard offer for
      small renewable projects, it has clearly demonstrated its commitment to use RFPs for
      everything else.

      What people often forget is that without a Request for Proposal and other documents — you have no idea of the company’s expertise, abilities and financial ability. What you get without the RFP or similar bid process you get fly-by-night companies, carpet-baggers, rent-seekers and plain old proficteers. Is that what happened? How many IWT’s are “Community Owned” and how many belong to major corporations?

  23. After fantastic successful careers – the ladies got bored – got together, and formed an “Intelligence Gathering” company.
    It used to be called ‘Espionage’ – but that’s such an ugly word.
    There’s no doubt – the ladies a brilliant!

    Maybe, they’d like to come over to where the sun shines?
    I know – they could turn things around.

  24. – referred to as: “Chicago Style Politics” – I could be wrong –
    I mean, what do I know?

  25. Marion..I am sure when one steps back and looks at the GEA and how lobbyists work with any government, when one removes oneself from the centre , the conclusion , the only conclusion is a new system is required. It is troubling that people this close cannot see the the moral and ethical mistakes

  26. One of the things that Marion Fraser pushed was the “Smart Grid” — see here:
    http://www.ontario-sea.org/Storage/24/1606_Smartening_up_the_Grid_Marion_Fraser.pdf

    She thinks it’s important because google returned over 500,000 hits by September 2008:
    It must be really important now — cause that’s what I got today…
    About 11,700,000 results (0.12 seconds)

    But how many places is a “Smart Grid” doing anything more useful than hitting a customer up for more money?

    I don’t make this comment lightly: Her presentation is cartoonish at best and childish at worst. Where are the hard facts to support a decision to implement a smart grid? The only thing approaching hard information is on page three.

    But consider a few small points: The Milton Graph appears to be for a “community” substation which is an amalgam of users and uses. The “Smart Metered” users appears to be a single residential user. Where is the user? New Zealand? USA? Canada? — The graph does not say. If it is in the southern hemisphere the seasons are opposite — and use has not been corrected for an equivalent season. If in the States, air Conditioning is a much bigger issue there. I’m sure you get the point…

    On page four — sure technological innovation is stalled, but then I don’t want a smart meter making decisions for me about my water heater, my clothes dryer, my furnace or air conditioner. The Smart Meter does not know my work requirements, my personal schedule, my health requirements or any of my needs.

    Page nine? What would Edison say? Indeed…

    Page 12? It’s all about Politics and the supplier — the consumer can go rot!
    Page 13: “Like computer networks, a successful smart grid will take advantage of end to end topology, where the real smarts can be found close to the points of use not centralized.”

    But only at the central node can you measure overall demand requirements, scheduling needs and system performance. People make this mistake in a lot of networks and manufacturing systems.

    Cartoons won’t make our system batter — but it did sell us out didn’t it? Maybe it’s time we hired a good cartoonist to get the points across.

    • Smart meaning what …
      I’m okay with rates being charged based on the cost at whatever time it is, etc. (I think Hudak should offer the old rate structure or a real-time-pricing option).
      The question is, what is required for that to have be meaningful?
      There are 2 requirements:
      -suppliers in a competitive market that will follow meaningful price signals to increase or decrease supply
      -consumers that are aware of the price at the moment they are deciding to use the electricity.
      These are not revolutionary thoughts, and in 2008 they were the future. The software giants leaped into the upcoming need for smart home information management as google developed SmartMeter and Microsoft developed Hohm.

      Jump to today, and Ontario’s smart meters not only seem nowhere in allowing real-time communication, but apparently it is a trend as electrical utilities opt for a cable industry profit model, where the cable box is kept proprietary in order to control the sales of add-on product. With that in mind, after 100’s of millions of dollars spent on the fake premise of empowering consumers, we should acknowledge the death of variable-time pricing should shortly follow the recent deaths of Microsoft Hohm and Google SmartMeter.
      For lack of interest.
      Nobody noticed.
      RIP

      • Scott:

        You can be aware of the price of Electricity if you want to spend another $1000 to $2000 installing a decent monitoring system. Like these guys sell:
        http://www.etherbee.com/store/
        Canajun even — eh?

        Until there is in-house display — and that information is clear and understandable the “Smart Meters” are just another stupid idea. But even if you do have monitoring that is in house — all you can do is make a choice — and sometimes it’s Hobson’s Choice. And if the meters did control your appliances and refuse to let you cook dinner or have dry clothes for work — would life be that enjoyable? Would it be worth living?

        Well where does that leave us — population control? — if a Green tells you the truth that population control and reduction is the real goal — ask how their vasectomy or tubal ligation worked out — if they haven’t had one — quit listening — you’re talking to a “poseur”..

      • A little zigbee in the home router – read only access to meter data with a unique ID provided on a bill, and voila – the biggest software companies were standing by to develop apps to do in-house display, as freeware – the cost for the simple monitoring of an appliance could be minimal, but really just seeing price and metered use would be helpful.
        I think the exit of Microsoft and Google are another indication of the failure of smart meter programs, and more generally the IT incompetence of public organizations.

      • Scott:

        The ZIGBEE is something I am aware of as I was working on “that sort of stuff and reporting and recording protocols” at the time. 🙂 However, without transmitting appliances it gives only gross (net) measurements from the meter…. and you can learn quite a bit — but not enough for fine control.

        You can add ZIGBEE modules at the appliances — but then you have to get at the appliance wiring and hook in the sensors and program the module — which usually voids the (any remaining) warranty. The solution I linked to gives you finer metering — but at the circuit branch level. Programming the ZIGBEES is something I can do and have the equipment and knowledge to do — I suspect it is beyond most home owners. I am pretty sure that our meter only has IR Tx/Rx — I could be wrong. (Ontario Hydro) I did research it last winter and could not determine the exact model — it is proprietary. The linked solution should be installed by a licensed electrician — but I am sure people “forget” the regs occasionally.

        You are right about the abandonment of the market — last I checked before I went south all the “reporting” appliances were really still in the test phase. I also suspect that other than air conditioners — the control system did not provide that much savings — showing the market id likely uneconomic — as you suggest.

      • For those who really want to know about “point” data collection here is a starting point to the hardware required to transmit information…
        http://www.hvwtech.com/products_view.asp?ProductID=1039

        This XBEE Pro unit has Analog to digital and digital so it can be hooked to current, temperature, humidity sensors etc. Since it is way beyond what this blog is about further questions won’t be answered here. 🙂

        Adding this sort of capability at the manufacturing stage would probably add about $10 per collection point — not the retail figure here — plus software costs.

        I added this so people can grasp that this is a complex solution that requires software, hardware and a control system — plus a user interface that makes it easy to understand.

        Some people believe that you can hand-wave it into existence via legislation and wishful thinking — I belong in the “alternative” camp — which believes that it will take some standards, engineering design and some careful thought, plus consumer acceptance and about 20 years to replace the majority of the appliances out there….

        The control software and user interface DOES NOT EXIST in the Smart Meter system — it would be an add-on — somewhere in the house. There are some independent software systems and even the Google system referenced — but… most are laughably bad so far.

      • I agree with that David, but I’d emphasize that any substantial change would filter in over 10-20 years, as the replacement cycle for most home appliances falls in that time frame.

  27. Don’t forget the role of Paul Gipe,the “Johnny Appleseed” of IWTs,in the development of the very high FITs in Ontario which attracted so much foreign investment money to Ontario.

  28. The point iis…the meters are not relevant.
    If the price is too high , does that mean you are turning you furnace off ?
    And why are we accepting business providng electricity for profit?….Where are the competitive prices?…………..we are just sitting still going the way of gas gouging…pretending it’s for the best

    • Ernest:

      The philosophy that created a lot of these problems is in the “Why RFPs Don’t Work” by Marion Fraser.

      According to Marion we are far better to have someone “who knows what they are doing” and acting “for our own good” make the choices. Just read the paper at the link I posted above. You should find it very enlightening. Just remember that pigs are more equal than other animals while you read it. Green Pigs are the most equal of all and are capable of organizing your life and needs — completely.

      Marion wanted electricity to be non-profit too — but very expensive electricity — so that we would not use it. It’s not as simple as profit or non-profit.

  29. Ernest, I think David is right.
    Your point, that the meters are “not relevant” is essentially correct, but they are correct because an Orwellian decision was made that they would empower control of consumers, and not consumers.
    Your smart meters (I’ll make it plural, because the concepts are the same for water and gas) could have been designed so you’d be able to access the information to know to change the furnace filter – or get it serviced.
    It could tell you if you had a water leak somewhere too.
    It could have lead a lot of unknown places, but it only lead to an expansion of the state, this one l think to the detriment of the individual.

    Smart meters didn’t pit techies against Luddites – maybe smart people against dishonest people.

  30. Smart meters are an expensive bad, joke, foisted on us by the likes of Marion and self-interested companies like IBM. When one listens to LDCs blathering on about them, it’s always about how they will make life easier for THEM. The basic error in selling them to the public was to promise that they’d generate savings. I agree with Scott — offer tiered pricing (perhaps three tiers) and true real-time pricing — what we had a form of immediately following market-opening (as a whole, not for individual residential consumers) and before Ernie blinked in November 2002. Right now, real-time pricing in Ontario is so flat as to induce huge yawns among anyone investigating out load shifting and/or peak shaving. At yesterday’s peak around 5 pm (EST), the spot price was about 3.8 cents/kWh. I can picture Joe Flaherty saying “Ah, thhaat was scary !”

  31. the relevance I was pointing to is..if it’s 38 degrees…in the summer…you are still going to use an AC or it’ it’s minus 25 in the winter you are still heating your home….you still have to cook etc.
    Smart meters as we all know are to control your use in case of grid issues…..as everything this party comes up with

  32. Marion’s world is along the lines of Germany…inspect , control , add fees and regulations.
    It is not a world I will accept for my children.
    If I was on a jury I would acquit anyone charged with standing up against anything along those lines.as justifiable..because I undersand the entire agenda.
    It’s not about the environment…that Canada can do nothing about , if shut everything down and went back to the horse and buggy….it would make no difference

  33. Not that it is relevant Ernest, but just so you know where I’m coming from, if it is 38 degrees I wouldn’t – because I do not now have, and never have had, a/c.
    I also wouldn’t be cooking inside (with electricity) when it is 38.
    It’s also been years since not having a/c was anything other than slightly uncomfortable a few days a year.
    In the winter, when it’s minus 25, I might be slow cooking on the constantly going wood stove (which can heat the house) – a very clean wood stove with properly dried firewood.
    I’m a little out there – admittedly.
    But I don’t use much electricity in either peak situation… and I think that’s a good thing.

  34. It goes to show you the genius in the mass media campaign that has been tossed at us for 8 years.
    It even permeates our discussions as if their assertions and claims are in fact true.
    You can’t store electricity being produced You either use it or the excess is sold off at bargain basement prices where an energy broker makes a million dollars trading electricity with a hit of a computer key or we pay to have someone take it.
    This was a very good letter by a reader :
    http://www.shorelinebeacon.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3178962
    Business uses 70% of electricity , homeowners use 30%
    Canada contributes 2% of the globes CO2 emissions of that 2% all transportation including shipping contributes 12% of this 2% , the Oil Sands contributes 22% of this 2%.
    The USA and China contribute 27% of the globes co2 emissions each.
    All of Canada produces 30% less emissions than Germany.
    Denmark has the highest electricity prices in the world along with the highest taxes in the world.
    They manufacture IWTs..Vespas
    Germany also is a global leader in IWT manufacturing..but of course China is surpassing everyone even as I write this.
    Point is this.
    It is quite possible that we are being manipulated regarding the issues the talking heads tell us we face.
    Why?…for another day.
    But you may find this interesting , the grants by Trillium

    Ontario Trillium Foundation 2009 –2010

    Grants to Environmental groups to promote /advertise /convince people of the benefits of the move by the Ontario Liberal Party to for profit Alternate Energy producers.
    You being the captured market.
    There was a proposal put to the Ontario Liberal Party back in 2009 but I suppose the problem with that was no profits to be had from you so McGuinty wasn’t interested.

    http://tgap.wordpress.com/the-gap-proposal/

    Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment
    $95,000

    The Energy Exhibition Collaborative c/o Ontario Sustainable Energy Association
    $127,300

    Sustainability Network
    $281,400

    Tides Canada Initiatives
    $289,800

    Low Income Energy Network (LIEN) c/o Advocacy Centre for Tenants Ontario
    $198,900

    Blue Green Now: Driving the Transition to Green Jobs in Ontario Communities c/o Steelworkers Humanity Fund (SHF)
    $420,800

    David Suzuki Foundation/Fondation David Suzuki
    $129,200

    High School Climate Challenge c/o Sierra Club of Canada Foundation
    $168,200

    Pembina Foundation for Environmental Research and Education
    $52,600

    Riversides c/o Green Communities Canada
    $97,800

    Tides Canada Initiatives and Waterlution – A Water Learning Experience c/o Tides Canada Initiatives
    $41,500

    Ontario Trillium Foundation 2010 –to March 2011

    Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment, as lead organization on this collaborative
    $233,800

    Green Communities Canada, as lead organization on this collaborative
    $95,900

    The Pembina Institute for Appropriate Development, as lead organization on this collaborative
    $130,000

    Canadian Environmental Grantmakers’ Network
    $27,100

    Green Communities Canada
    $281,900

    Pillar Nonprofit Network, as lead organization on this collaborative
    $454,000

    Local Enhancement and Appreciation of Forest , as lead organization on this collaborative
    $255,700

    Small Change Fund Inc.
    $289,900

    Tides Canada Initiatives Society , as lead organization on this collaborative
    $100,000

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