I was naive — I submitted a comment

There may be people who still believe in filing comments with the Ministry of the Environment about the wind project proposed in their area – the government might actually listen to you and take your concerns into consideration- at least that’s what they say they will do.

Do you ever wonder why the government and wind company push for you to fill out those forms at Wind Company public meetings? Why they insist you follow public process? “Submit Comments!!!”,  they seem to scream everywhere. Well, when you’ve been to the end, the Environmental Review Tribunal as an appellant, you might be witness to where all those oh-so-harmless looking ‘comments’ that you provided to your government, in good faith, go: Directly to the MOE’s evidence to use against you in any way they can. See my name below for the Zephyr appeal…. Esther.

Jan 6 2012

37 thoughts on “I was naive — I submitted a comment

  1. Sorry – I must be pretty dense.
    I don’t see how this information is being “used against you”? If anything, I would expect you to be pleased that they have at least acknowledged and logged your comment. What am I missing??

  2. I don’t understand either why there is a problem. Your comments were acknowledged – I personally don’t believe they (government) really pays much attention to the public if the public doesn’t agree.

    • One way to identify the “ringleaders” but these are not confidential records.On the other hand now the public knows that comments and complaints were filed but nothing was done so this can easily backfire on them.

  3. The items pulled by the Ministry of Environment lawyers were to be used to prove that we are ‘activists’, which apparently is a bad thing, and for that we should be dismissed. They were not bringing up these phone messages, e-mails and comments to show us they were acknowledging our complaints. If you haven’t watched these lawyers in action an ERT, then you should. And even if this was true is this really how you wish your complaints to be “acknowledged”, after the project is already approved and being constructed?

    • Can records/documents like the one posted above be obtained for each project? if so, it would be useful to get them.

      • The important documents are not the ones with the names of objectors on them but some of the other documents on this list.

    • There is a significant movement to paint people against “Climate Science” and “Green Energy” as “crazy, unbalanced, mentally deficient” or whatever way you want to put it. We are seen as people who reject science. We are not portrayed as people who claim that decisions are made without scientific evidence of efficacy — which is how we see ourselves.

      People like Stephan Lewandowsky (U of T grad, at UWA in Australia) have been actively conducting bogus surveys and publishing scholarly papers purporting to show that people like us are “Conspiracy Theorists” not worthy of consideration.

      Steven McIntyre of Climate Audit has been looking at one particular survey by Lewandowsky with a particularly inflammatory title that attempts to paint people who go against the consensus as Conspiracy Theorists.
      http://climateaudit.org/2012/09/08/lewandowsky-scam/

      The recent article by Lewandowsky et al, “NASA faked the moon landing, Therefore (Climate) Science is a Hoax: An Anatomy of the Motivated Rejection of Science”, has attracted commentary at Jo Nova, Bishop Hill, WUWT, Lucia’s and Skeptical Science, as well as by Lewandowsky himself. The data was placed online at Bishop Hill here.

      Tom Curtis of Skeptical Science observed that at least “10 of the respondents have a significant probability of being produced by people attempting to scam the survey” and that the “paper has no data worth interpreting with regard to conspiracy theory ideation”. The scam identified by Curtis was that these respondents were almost certainly warmists caricaturing skeptics. Their caricatures were grotesque: two respondents, claiming to be skeptics, purported to believe in every single conspiracy, no matter how wacko. That the US government was complicit in 9/11; that the Moon Landings were fake; that SARS and AIDS were government plots, etc etc.

      Perhaps there is a conspiracy — perhaps it’s just not the one that “officialdom” might like us to believe.

      Watts Up With That has been following this closely as well. More surveys are in the works By Lewandowsky et al attempting to paint people as “loonies” if they do not believe the work of the Green Activists and Climate Fear Mongers.

      These complaints should be tracked to monitor how and if the government responds to complaints.

      Should we be concerned about how people use this tracking information? Maybe it is all quite innocent — we will see how it unfolds.

      Perhaps someday we will all plead guilty — but with a reason.

  4. Wake up people!! The government keeps records on YOU! The US keeps records on Canadians for the Canadian government and the Canadian government stores records on US citizens.
    Your emails and your phone calls are monitored without having to get a wire-tap or warrant — it is all done electronically and legally.
    Facebook info is used by employers to decide whether you will be hired. The government secretly accomplishes the same studies on prospective employees.
    We are bombarded on a daily basis with surveillance systems of all kinds.
    The government knows protesters in the tens of thousands don’t want wind turbines in their vicinities already — what they want to document is the ring-leaders as mentioned in a previous email here.
    Identified ringleaders can then be denied jobs like postal delivery jobs, etc., etc.

    • Anyone who posts personal information on social websites has no one to blame but themselves if employers and others read this information. People who post on these sites need to get legal advice on why this is an undesirable thing to do.

  5. What’s next……….a formal “mental assessment” for filing more than one complaint?………………..this is a Government so “out of control” by the PEOPLE that it should be considered a “rogue Government” and be totally made to appear en masse in a Public Inquiry to answer for their harmful actions to lands, health and people with their Green Energy Scam!

  6. I obtained the EBR submissions for the Green Energy Act regulations in 2009. They have personal information blacked out. One particularly heart breaking submission had the distance of different turbines from their home blacked out. Being familiar with what was going on, I knew all but one of them exceeded the proposed 550 m rule. The closer one had been shut down, but without any improvement. They don’t want you to know that they know that 550 m is too close.

    The government has been co-opted by the wind turbine industry. In one submission by CanWEA, they claimed that 3/4 of shovel ready projects would be in jeopardy if the government implemented the 550 m from a home and the hub height plus blade length from roads, railways, and property lines. The government listened to them and cut it to blade length plus 10 m.

  7. The ministry has a file on everyone. Photos, history of attendance at meetings etc. included. Lots of video now. Very disturbing to innocent folk just trying to protect their families and neighbours.
    Goes to show how innocent this “need for green energy” scam is. They have turned our province into a giant turf war and they don’t give a crack how many lives are destroyed along the way.
    As they say:
    “He who dies with the most, wins”
    It’s all that matters to these idiots. They just don’t get it.

  8. GOVERNMENT is from the Latin gubor mente, meaning control mind. Well for all the sleepies this should be awake up call again! The alarm clock keeps buzzing and most of us shut it off and go back to the fictional sleep world of slavery. Times are changing fast and start looking into Agenda 21 were you will see your total enslavement in rabbit cages.I for one will not go there but most of you will because of the fear factor they spell on you Your voted GOVERNMENT. Cheers

    • When dem dar rednecks wher sayin “gubermente” I guess they weren’t as illiterate as I thought after all.

  9. There are some very important documents and or reports in the above list along with the identity of the document author and the date so the existance of such documents can’t be denied. Any and all documents and or reports for each project should be obtained.
    Might be a good idea to begin with the projects that also got federal money as these are now completed projects.

  10. ‘norilsk’ makes the only important comment:
    ‘The government has been co-opted by the wind turbine industry.’
    Whilst I have no doubt that this sham of a ‘provincial government’ is vindictive enough to act against some who have submitted comments to MoE and others I doubt if they care enough to do so. All the reports they produce keep bureaucrats, paid for by you and I, in a job . The same bureaucrats who wrote the Green Energy Act based on reports submitted by Canwea and the Ontario wind energy industry.
    They haven’t lost an appeal yet and continue to approve more and more projects.
    Why would they need to act against the growing thousands of rural Ontarions when they have no need to?
    Their mountains of reports, including listing comments from opponents, just like the two public meetings the wind energy companies are obliged to hold, are no more than a necessary part of their pretence at public consultation and really doesn’t mean a thing.
    As long as so many of us still attempt to pretend we can deal with these folk like rational and civilized people who may one day actually listen to us we will get nowhere.
    We need a municipality prepared to say ‘No’ all the way, refuse to issue a single building permit for an IWT project, approve multiple Bylaws regarding safety, health, set backs, noise, whatever and flat out refuse every application submitted by anyone associated with Industrial wind projects up to and including being sued by whoever out there wishes to sue them! And that municipality, if one exists, should be given the the full and unconditional support of OWR and all its members!
    Continuing just to do what we do with no positive results is exactly what McGuinty and his Energy Minister want, Do any of you actually believe that either of them care? Do any of you actually believe either will ever be held accountable for destroying rural Ontario and its rural residents?
    So far no hearing I have seen reported refers to the Municipal Act?
    Courts have always ruled based on the Green Energy Act being law and that’s it!
    I’ve yet to hear of a court actually claiming that the Green Energy Act overrules the Municipal Act in all respects because I do not think it has been done?
    I’m still surprised none of the lawyers representing groups opposing IWTs appear to have suggested charging proponents with Criminal Negligence?
    Why do we continue only to act in the ‘political’ arena of the MGuinty government and the wind energy industry? It makes no sense!
    Andrew Watts

    • Criminal negligence is neglecting to do something that results in death or seroius injury. So let’s not confuse negligence with fraud or corruption here. A council maybe not taking the necessary steps to do something about this situation is more likely to be due to fraud or corruption or some kind of pressure tactics used on them.Or there maybe some councils who believe Chicken Little stories.

    • Hear Hear!!!!……………..exactly!……………….dealing with these officials as if they were actually honourable and caring humans is a lost cause!
      They don’t give one single ounce of respect for anyone other than their partners in this Green Energy Scam………………….write letters, plead for help, accuse them of not completing forms or holding a proper Public Meeting………………..it’s all for NOT!
      The only thing that will get their attention is for a unanimous “GET OUT OF OUR TOWN” by all Municipal reps, and issue NOTHING that pertains to anything “Green Energy”.
      One other thing……………….charge them all with a criminal charge!……………..bet a lot of OPP Officers would love to serve the summons!

  11. It’s so true — people still apparently believe their voices will be heard. They won’t be heard by this government — it will be necessary to go to the courts as Andrew Watts recommends.
    The Tory government of Hudak won’t help either because they have a blind ideological belief in corporate imperialism.
    The NDP is nowhere either and commit electoral suicide because they will never gain seats in rural Ontario because of their sheer ignorance of justified reasons for opposition to wind turbines.. McGuinty is in a minority because of the anti-wind turbine vote at least.
    Not reported in major media who front for political parties and corporate advertisers at EVERY turn.

    • Other countries have the same problem with belief in wind & solar which is in all of the political parties because making huge sums of money off from these schemes is attractive to all political stripes.

  12. To Victor: Not ‘go to the courts’ but find a municipality prepared to be taken to court by wind companies, OPA, even provincial government by refusing to allow their Building Inspector to issue building permits.
    I don’t believe enough local politicians are aware of just how powerful the Municipal Act is because they have never attempted to use it against McGuinty and his Green Energy Act.
    And you will find that the reason so many municipalities may ask for a moratorium but then do nothing to stop IWT projects is they are still accepting their staff’s advice and recommendations.
    This advice, often based on fear of bureaucrats further up the public servant food chain is to tell their elected ‘bosses’ what they cannot do rather than to offer advice in favour of fighting the ‘system’!.
    Don’t know about you but I didn’t elect my local council to roll over every time an unelected member of staff says ‘Boo’.!
    So far, however worthy the attempts, private groups taking the wind energy companies to court have failed and so far seem unlikely to succeed in the future?
    Our elected councils are a recognized part of government and on taking office swear an oath to protect the best interests of the communities they were elected to serve.
    I like to believe that in spite of Ontario courts apparently biased in favour of the Green Energy Act and so the wind energy crooks, if a municipality appeared in front of them they would
    have no choice but to listen to all the arguments presented by a municipality’s lawyers?
    There can’t be anyone reading the comments on this site who have done only a minimal amount of IWT research who isn’t convinced that in any genuinely impartial and factual court of law all of these projects as approved under the Green Energy Act would be rejected on any number of legitimate and already proven grounds. .
    Yet still they get approval.
    It’s time to try something different and, after all, it was us who elected our own local councils to protect us?
    Andrew Watts

    • Andrew, you are most certainly correct.

      We need just one municipal council with the cojones to say no to IWT projects … no permits, no permission, no co-operation, no nothing. We need to test the system just once to see how it pans out.

      Some councils tend to want to go this route but ultimately defer to the advice of their solicitor who, while doing his job and covering his butt, warns of the dangers of being successfully sued by the wind companies with taxpayer’s dollars at stake.

  13. It sounds like the wind industry and the provincial government doesn’t want people saying bad things about their turbines. So what is the correct thing for you to do? Complain more.

    The government and the wind industry are trying to intimidate people. Make sure this backfires on them; make sure you speak out more.

    Also you will want a record of your complaints. The government likes to black out parts of documents so make sure you have copies in your own possession.

  14. “Sorry Barbara, I disagree. The following are the standards a jury are instructed to take into account in cases of Criminal Negligence :

    “The Crown must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused’s conduct showed a marked departure from the conduct of a reasonable person in the circumstances; and that a reasonable person in the same circumstances would have foreseen that this conduct posed a risk of bodily harm.

    “Bodily harm is any hurt or injury that interferes with a person’s health or comfort and is more than brief or minor. In deciding what a reasonable person would have done or foreseen, you must not take into account (the accused’s) individual characteristics or experiences.

    These directions still offer the accused(wind energy companies)considerable latitude to claim ‘innocence’. But do you really believe with all the evidence worldwide it would be impossible to show that by building IWTs they are intentionally acting in a way to ‘..interfere with a person’s health and comfort and is more than brief and minor..’?

    I know it is probably dumb for a layman to believe lawyers and the law necessarily make sense, but
    I would really like to hear from a lawyer why such a case could not be won?
    Andrew Watts

    • OK — but now you have to get around the report from the Chief Medical Officer which says there can be no harm… This is why the report was so crucial.

      Nice thought though…

      First you must get it generally accepted that the report is wrong — by Government Officials. Then you can pursue this tack.

      Best wishes and good luck.

    • Agreeded ,but to a judge or jury the evidence would need to be very strong as there is no “blood” here yet unless an IWT falls on someone.
      Fraud and corruption are much easier to prove and can carry jail time as well.

  15. I suppose the setback space of a wind turbine prevents anyone from being able to build within that 550 metres?
    Are wind turbines preventing construction of a home on the immediate neighbour’s property?
    What does the zoning on this say?

  16. You got it Victor. Can’t build on your own property. Suppose you want to build on the part of your property that has the best view. Not if it is within the 550 metre setback! Not only are they stealing our equity and sucking our money from the trough, they are dictating where we build on our own property. In fact they are tresspassing on our property as their noise and LFS encroaches and makes us sick. Shame on the Liberals. We need to enact a law that forbids ANY government to push any business. Goverment always pick losers and losers always pick government.

    • In summary, people’s property rights have been removed and property rights go back centuries in the law.

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